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Hi beeant,I have a suggestion that could help to farther improve the site :D If the… - Feed Post from MarcusAseth to beeant

Hi beeant,I have a suggestion that could help to farther improve the site :D
If the level cap is moved at 99 or 999 or 9999 ,maybe increasing a bit the level up speed so for example,when people reach level 7 they unlock lvl2 kanjis,when people get lvl 15 they unlock lvl 3 kanji, & even when at level 50 people unlock the last level of kanji,they can keep up the practice to increase theyre level & to see who can go further :P Now best people are all level 6,& is a bit less cool than see the first one at lvl 220 & the second one at 192 :D
posted by MarcusAseth

Comments 14

  • beeant
    Thank you for your suggestion.
    Actually I thought about this before. But I also thought that when I change the system, the EXP point will have different meaning.

    Like, when we play RPG games, you will gain level no matter how difficult the enemies you killed. Do play RPG games? If you do I guess you would understand.

    but ya, learning and improving yourself isn't like RPG games. Dealing with the same thing over and over again is unlikely to level ourselves up, although we will be more experienced with that particular thing we do.

    I really want to change the system to be like what you said. It is more understandable even for people who don't play RPG games.

    But, when the level up system changed, do you JCJP should change or remove EXP points? because EXP points may/may not cause confusion.
  • MarcusAseth
    I am not an expert on this kind of stuff,but I try to "squeeze" my brain about this,maybe I can inspire you to found the best way for doing that :D
    So,the first thing to worry about is to preserve the actual rank list,you need an automatic systeam that for example give at each person 1 level for every 60.000exp they already have,so for example Medyrius that is the rank1 student with 6 Milions of exp,became a level 107 student (& continue from here his level up) ,the second one is samurainumber7 that will became a level 87 student,I go from level 3 back to level 1,but the changes require sacrifices xD
    Then,from that point I think would be better working with smaller numbers & to change the way the exp is earned,I throw my idea in case it could help :)
    Each kanji have an hidden tag that identify his difficulty level,a level from 1 (easy) to 10 (really hard) (or maybe a level based on strokes) so Kanjis give exp based on theyre difficulty level, a level 1 Kanji gives 10 exp if answer correctly,a level 2 Kanji gives 35 exp and so on...but,each time you answer a kanji correctly,the next time you answer it correctly it gives -15% exp,until it reach a minimum of 10% given for correct answer (this because each time you answer it,it became less challenging,& it even avoid people for farm the quiz that they know only for exp,thoug I don't think someone that do that xD )
    Gaining a level then sould normally work based on exp,I bet that online there are many mathematical formulas & discussions about that,though I think that would be great to stay with low numbers (like 100exp to go from lvl 1 to 2 or 10.000exp from level 99 to 100.
    Don't know if the thing I have write could help or if they are easy or hard to do,but for sure allowing to further level up is the natural evolution of this awesome site that mix study with Rpg,after that step maybe would be the time for the Achievment & graphic upgrade (rpg like eheh :D ),I mean,this site have a lot of potential for became something really unique & innovative,is already very good but it can became awesome beyond any immagination,I feel it :D
    Keep with the good work ;)
  • MarcusAseth
    Ah,Beeantさん,I have had another idea that need to be shared :D
    But this idea require a lot of imagination (cause my description is not enough) & someone good at drawing stuff,like a concept artist :S
    So,imagine a new button on the city,called "Town",when you click it,you will be redirect in a place like the one on this image http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g80/386480/386480_1248689147_medium.jpg

    but from a street perspective :D
    So,you now can interact with the City,if for example you click in the direction of a street with a sign that say "Plaza",you will be redirect on the forum but with a graphic restyling to keep that fantasy city style :D
    Again starting from the Town interface,you can click the "Shop" button.
    After that,you will be redirect into the shop,where you have another cool draw of an old japanese woman that sells Kanjis! :D
    Each user start with 1000 golds,each kanji worth depend on it's difficult,let's say 100gold for each easy Kanji,so you now but the first 10 Kanjis (this are gold that you earn into the site by studying)
    Then on Town again,you click in the "House" direction & this is the place where all the kanji you buy are stored,here you can look at them (but to keep the fantasy style they are writen on a parchment like http://www.vegasshotokan.com/images/Kanji_Parchment.jpg )
    ,here you can listen to the pronunciation & spend the time reviewing the purchased stuff,you can't go into "kanji overload" simple because to earn more money & buy new kanjis,you first have to prove that you know that :D
    & here we have 2 way to earn more gold,the first one would be to go into the "Elder House" that basically ask you randomly about the kanjis/vocab that you have purchase,it gives you 20G (gold) for every correct answer (who don't like to earn gold by learning?!!! :D ) ,the second way is very similar to the quiz/test that the site already havebut with a little modify :S
    You have played Final Fantasy 8 right? It have the "Seed exam" that is a quiz,if you pass,you gain 1 Seed level & more high is your level,more money you receive,so here in the site,if you are a level 1 guy you receive 500G each 24hours (enough for buy 5 new easy kanji) ,if you pass the first test you became a Level 2 guy & you receive more money each 24 hours :D
    This totally feel like a game/rpg that keep you on japanese study,for me sound like an "utopia",a dream (cause it require an enormous ammount of work) but definitively the best study/rpg experience ever :D
    Do you like? :D
  • beeant
    I like your idea. I also thought of making JCJP to be more "RPG-like", buy implementing shops and graphics. This way JCJP can be more visual and virtual.

    But the problem is that, it is difficult to find a good artist who is willing to work voluntarily as JCJP has not earn enough money yet to pay good artists.

    Also, I am still programming JCJP alone. It even difficult for me to find the time to continue on developing and trying new features.

    To answer your first reply, high level like level 99 is so "RPG-like". but firstly, I think we should consider what do we want to show in level?
    1. is it the level of answering question regardless of the uniqueness of the question?
    2. is it the experience level of how many unique kanji/vocabulary/question a user have answered/encounter?

    I prefer the second one. and I also do not want to ignore the first one.

    So I think, we can go for number 2 to define the "overall level" of a user, which JCJP does not have yet.

    and number 1 to define a user level for each vocabulary/kanji, which I think JCJP already has this (vocabulary status, good, weak, oblivion), although it might not use the best mathematical formula to produce the output (do you have any suggestion for this algorithm?).

    So in conclusion of my reply, I basically want to say:
    1. yes, I would love to make JCJP more graphical and virtual. but JCJP still have a problem finding artists.

    2. there are several things that we need to discuss to improve JCJP leveling system.

    I want to share with you the simple basic concept of JCJP other than making it to be RPG-like. The concept of JCJP that I want to make is to help you manage vocabularies/kanji.
    where you can:
    1. learn vocabulary/kanji
    2. know which vocabulary/kanji that you already learned 100%.
    3. know which vocabulary/kanji that you need to learn more.
    4. know which vocabulary/kanji that you need to improve.
    5. know which vocabulary/kanji that you might forgotten.
    6. know what to learn next.
  • beeant
    I like this idea, "the next time you answer it correctly it gives -15% exp,until it reach a minimum of 10% given for correct answer (this because each time you answer it,it became less challenging"

    There are actually several people who farm easy vocabulary/kanji, and earn high combo. The way I solve this problem is to limit the answer for each vocabulary/kanji to 30, if a user have answered it correctly more than 30 times, the system will consider them to be already good at it.

    However, there are still some problem relating to this right now. Sometimes, I look at user's statistics with high EXP and high level who only has a few number of vocabularies/kanji learned.

    I am trying to solve this right now, but I'm not gonna simply disregard all of their efforts farming those easy kanji/vocabularies. I need a mathematical formula to calculate user level with these parameters,
    1. Discovery, number of encountered items (vocabulary/kanji)
    2. Effort, number of answers regardless of uniqueness (EXP points)
  • MarcusAseth
    Beeantさん,I like your spirit to want further improve the site :D ,unfortunatly I don't know enough about math to come up with a good formula to manage the exp side of the site,but I am quite sure that this is kind of ordinary stuff for people that actually programs rpg videogames,could be hard to contact them but there is an alternative,sites like this one http://www.gamedev.net/ have a community & a forum full of people that are studing to be one day amazing programmers that for example work on the Ubisoft or Square-Enix,so I am pretty sure that if you register on that forum & ask about some math formulas for exp in an rpg,they can come out with Brilliants ideas! :D
    For the concept artist side,in this site here http://www.conceptart.org/ you can find people that is entering in the draw world & people who already is a master as the one that make that fantasy city concept I linked on the previous reply,so here are the legendary guys you are looking for :D Convincing one strong concept artist to join your project is not difficult as you think,even without money,for example,I have to do with graphic (I am going to became a 3d artist for videogames,the one who make character,weapons,vehicles,environment & stuff),in this game I am creating this rifle http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/4977/test3f.png (I have to do the textures now) for an Indie Videogames we are going to create & release trough Steam,in this other link you can see more images of the game & the preview video http://dream-powered.com/public/index.php We have a lot of talented people, 2 other 3d artists on the group actually already work on the Ubisoft & do this only like a hobby/part time job,& the best part is that we all work for free!!! :D
    This because everyone of us can see the potential of this project & already know that it is going to pay back in the future (either with when we finish it & start to sell & with another thing to put into the portfolio(the curriculum of an artist),so,we can do the same on the conceptart.org forum,there is the section to hire people so you can ask there,explain everything & pointing out that this project as an high-potential,this because a normal videogames became old,but the study of the japanese can never becase old(every year a new generation of young want to study it!),so if you make 2 different sites, one JCJP (this one) for free & another one with the help of the concept artist & more videogame-like called JCJP+ (where people pay 5€/month or 7$/month) this is enough of a safe investment for a great concept artist to join you & work for free untile the site is finished (of course you have to promise to share like 5-30%income with him,depending of how much he do :P)
    Really man,a site like that put you in a good position for the rest of your life,just imagine 200 people that pay 5€ each moth,is like gaining a salary without doing nothing EACH MONTH!! :D & for sure,is the site is awesome as I am imagining it,it would have way more than 200 guys on it (I am in for sure! :D )
    Soo...I hope you accomplish this before someone else try to stole the idea,you need only to belive in it ;)
  • Medyrius
    Hi there futari tomo ;)
    I've been following your exchange for a while and i'd like to give my opinion if you wouldn't mind...

    Well firt of all I have to say Marcus's ideas are crazy attractive! *_* it'd be SO wonderful if JCJP could be transformed in such a fantastic rpg world... I myself happen to imagine features like that but so far I keep them all for myself considering that it would take too many ressources to achieve that... Besides, the fact that JCJP is a total free application would be the first thing to vanish if so much efforts were to be put together to produce such a unique online rpg game...

    So Macus, I think these ideas may just lead to something else - even if it's more cool - and JCJP may have to be rebuilt all over again...

    Though, I'm more sensible to the propositions about the levelling system. I also think it should be thinked over a little bit...

    First, I agree with Marcus that the leveling system is not quite logic as it is now, but I also get Beeant's point as to the meaning of the level right now...
    My idea is to split the leveling system into two different systems : one we'd call "class level", would depend exclusively on EXP and would be a classic leveling system like in other rpg games : the greater your amount of exp, the higher your level, and this level determines your rank is the class just like in real life. (top being everyone's goal)

    The other level would be your learning status level and only determines your kanji level, vocabulary level, reading level, etc.
    For example :
    - Kanji level : 6 (meaning you've supposedly learned all the previous levels kanjis)
    - Vocab level : 5 (same idea)
    - Reading level : 3 (number generated according to the number of vocab you've learned through reading articles)
    And so on...

    The major change to be made before all this is to make it so people can't access e.g level 2 lessons (test and practice) prior to their completing all level 1 tests... So they'll be stuck there even though their class level may be growing (at the rythm of level 1 exp earning rate + combo eventually)
    That way, people will surely be motivated to unlock higher lesson levels to earn more exp through practicing and improve their class ranking faster...

    In this configuration, the rpg aspect of JCJP is a little bit more present I think. And the only thing that can make you climb higher is to do regular efforts in learning and progressing...

    I'm kind of bothered with the current order of things which allows fresh users to reach level 6 and unlock the totality of JCJP lessons just by spending something like 2h practicing...
    That makes think that the practice feature should be only available for the lessons you've already been tested on... Which would result in the practice being unusable for the fresh users... That would be 100% logic after all, why'd you go practicing if you've not yet learned anything?

    Also, about the farming limitation methods, I think the method Marcus suggested can fix a little uneasyness within the Beeant's current method (30 time answer limit)
    With the current method it becomes really, i mean REALLY annoying to revise some oblivion vocabulary/kanjis. We must not forget that JCJP is a rpg-like learning tool. Thus it's kind demotivative if you have to revise for example 1000 oblivion vocab and knowing you'll have +0 exp for every answer you make...

  • MarcusAseth
    Ah,if you are going to ask for a concept artist who want to join & work on the project for free until is finished (on concept artist.org), Just remember to show them this site,to show them what you have already accomplished,in this way more serious guys can be interested on the project ;)
  • MarcusAseth
    HI Medyrius,Glad you join the conversation! :D
  • Medyrius
    Oops it took me some time to write my previous message...

    It's real place is between Marcus's last 2 comments... ;)

    Soreyori, I really didn't know about all this you're saying, marcus... It's kind of interesting! I've always wanted to hop into something like that but I was waiting for the right context. That and the fact that my studies are still undercourse...

    Douyara, It'd be great if JCJP could be a large scale project of that sort... I hope beeant is interested in it...
  • Medyrius
    Attarimae darou! Omoshirosugi da yo ;)
  • beeant
    thank you very much for thinking about JCJP development for the future.

    those sites seems really useful to find talent. I saw some of the works, it's really amazing. Thank you for sharing the information.

    Your work is really cool! the artwork, soundfx and everything is done professionally. Are you interested in iPhone game development? or Android?

    Back to our discussion, I think this site, can simply depict our ideas, http://www.nicotto.jp/
    It has house, clothes, etc. I would really love to make it like that.
    But ya, as we know, JCJP needs artist to realize that, I prefer cute artwork like that.

    Other than JCJP, I am also working http://englishclass.jp
    but I haven't spent much time on it.

    About the leveling system,
    dividing levels to kanji, vocabulary is a good idea. but I think it would make things more complicated, and it is not that necessary thinking about the complication that it will give.

    I think if you have answered 30 times, the vocabulary/kanji wouldn't be in your oblivion list as the system consider you to have mastered that vocabulary/kanji, or you wouldn't forget that vocabulary.

    other than EXP, I also want to bring other motivation to users. I want to make JCJP main ranking to be the number of vocabulary/kanji a user have encountered, or based on the formula that includes efforts and discoveries.

    What do you think about this?
  • Medyrius
    It seems you're right about the oblivion setup... I didn't realise there actually was no 30+ vocab/kanji in the list...

    I seize the occasion to remind you of the suggestion I made last year about the 30+ entries.
    How about gathering all them into a list we'd call "mastered list" or something like that... And those won't be displayed anywhere (e.g during practice) But the list would be available for checking (and perhaps revising)...

    That way people will get to know what what they're supposed to be already familiar with and it will become easier to focus on other things...

    I'm sorry to insist about the EXP thingy but though I may be misunderstanding your thought, I kind of feel like what you say is already in place, actually...

    In fact, the current EXP points are nothing but a reflection of the number of vocab/kanji encountered in tests and practice.

    The thing is that the EXP concept (we can call it pointing system for convenience) is in charge of converting every single encounter you make into points...
    Of course there's the combo counter which influences how much points you get from an encounter, even if it's the same encounter...

    Now if the ranking system was to be determined, like you say, by the number of vocab/kanji, without those being converted into points(EXP), then the EXP concept, which is one of JCJP's main originalities would be simply meaningless... Right?

    I think the current ranking system is actually alright if you consider it as a point awarding system.
    It's totally fair and motivative. Besides maintaining one's combo counter represents a lot of effort in my opinion :P.
    That said, I totally agree that it can be improved to add more effort and discovery factors...

    However, where the system shows a shadow of incoherence is at the point where it determines people's level ONLY at begining (until you reach lev6)...

    Seriously, what's the point with gaining level through EXP points until level 6 and then be blocked there for ages?

    I admit it might be confusing having many leveling systems but I have no doubt as to the fact that the pointing system MUST be detached from the lessons levels...

    How about renaming the lessons "levels" to something else... Like "years" for example, it would sound cool ^^...
    Level 1 vocab/kanji could be called "first year" and people that have not yet completed the lessons there would have the "freshman" title in their profile... level 2 would be sophomore and so on...

    By the way, what do you think about my suggestion concerning the restrictions in lessons access?
    I think it's really important that the lessons are progressively available. I think it will force people (in a good way) to follow the right order, which will result in the learning being more structured...

  • MarcusAseth
    Thanks Beeant :)
    Actually,the game we are doing now is only for pc,maybe in future we can do stuff for other platforms who know :D ,unfortunatly even if we are doing a good job it can't stand the level of a real Softwarehouse,this for example because they have better engine & less limitations...but I am goin Off Topic xD
    In this days I am interested in learning to draw for personal purposes,like to be able to do my own concept arts before modeling something,so I have already ordered a great anatomy book so I can practice by drawing a human figure between a spaceship concept & a landscape environment,who know,if you don't have hurry,maybe I can became in future the guy who make the draw for the city xD
    (at the moment I can do this http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/7669/paesaggio.png but I still need a lot of practice,& to study about how to color in photoshop in a professional way :P )




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