I'm learning Hiragana at the minute and i was trying to figure out how to learn the order, like… - Feed Post by Ncampbell033
I'm learning Hiragana at the minute and i was trying to figure out how to learn the order, like how you learn the order abcdefg ect and online everyone says the order is a, i, u, e, o across and k, s, t, n, h, m, y, r, w (or something along those lines downwards) but no one mentions the symbols after those like I think g, z, d, b, p or something like that is after it.. Why does everyone ignore these and is there a rhyme or something to remember the FULL order and not just down to w? Any help would be appreciated thank you :)
posted by Ncampbell033
Comments 9
Hi. The Japanese have the 五十音('go-juu-on') which means 'fifty sounds'--their 'alphabet'. This is literally just those 46 basic hiragana (although one of those hiragana ん 'n' is a newer character, added at the end of the table). The table is actually rotated the other way around though, as Japanese is written vertically (or rather, they wrote vertically before computers came about...)
Here is the 五十音図(go-juu-on-zu) 'fifty sounds table':
ＷＲＹＭＨＮＴＳＫ ＋
━━━━━━━━━━╂
わらやまはなたさかあ┃Ａ
り みひにちしきい┃Ｉ
るゆむふぬつすくう┃Ｕ
れ めへねてせけえ┃Ｅ
をろよもほのとそこお┃Ｏ
ん
This IS their alphabet order 五十音順(go-juu-on-jun). あ い う え お か き く け こ さ し ..... わ を ん. You shouldn't really need a rhyme to remember it, although here's one that got stuck in my head for remembering the ordering of the rows:
'A Kind Samurai Told Naomi How My Yak Ran Wild' (...lol)
As for g, z, d, b, p, these are just 'voiced' pronunciation versions of their counterparts. Their sounds are pronounced differently by small position changes of throat/mouth/tongue/lips, making them voiced versions (semi-voiced in the case of 'p'). These aren't regarded as members of the alphabet, just that their different pronunciations have to be marked with ゛ and ゜.
きゃ kya, きゅ kyu, きょ kyo, etc. are the same--they aren't included as proper alphabet members either, as they are lierally just き with small versions of や/ゆ/よ to show that they need to be pronounced together.
There is an old traditional orderring of the Japanese alphabet, called 'Iroha', which is written as a poem. However, this is a complicated ordering which isn't really used, and it contains two extra hiragana which are no longer in use (for ゐ 'wi' and ゑ 'we') and doesn't have ん 'n'...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iroha
Ah thank you so much for clearing that up for me I was so confused :) literally just started out but I'm so excited to learn, down to my hs in the Hirgana :) that's what confused me, I didn't realise all those other ones were just different pronunciations :) haha thanks again, you helped a lot!- Hiragana*
- If you're wondering how Japanese sort lists in alphabetical order, they use that same fifty sounds ordering 五十音順.
Voiced versions of hiragana are bundled together with unvoiced (G is treated the same as K, Z the same as S, etc.). However, if two words are identical other than the voicing marks, then the unvoiced is listed first.
Example list:
ありがとう a-ri-ga-to-u
いいえ i-i-e
かいもの ka-i-mo-no
かく ka-ku
かぐ ka-gu
がく ga-ku
かくじつ ka-ku-ji-tsu
かける ka-ke-ru
きもの ki-mo-no
...
As you can see in my correctly ordered list above, 'kaku' gets listed first, then 'kagu' which is identical other than the voicing mark ゛on the second hiragana, then 'gaku' which is identical again other than voicing ゛ on the first hiragana.
For list ordering purposes, voicing differences are ignored as much as is possible, as if か 'ka' and が 'ga' are completely identical, until there's a situation when these differences are useful. ^^ - Thanks you've been so much help :) it's a lot to take in at once but it makes sense, I will screen shot this for future reference though since I'm only started and this will probably make more sense further down the line :) how long have you been studying Japanese for? You seem so knowledgable haha :)
- No problem. Writing posts like this helps me also with remembering stuff. I knew this was a bit too much information to give someone who's just starting out, but hopefully it also helps some other people who are reading. If you want to find this post in the future, then as you were the one who started the post, you can find it in the 'Feeds' section on your own user profile page. ^^
http://japaneseclass.jp/user/statistics/55400#feed
I started teaching myself Japanese around when I was 14. During boring French lessons at school, I repeatedly doodled the fifty sounds table above for hiragana and katakana, until I knew both of them near perfectly. :D
I'm now 28 and my Japanese still isn't that great... I know this sounds VERY bad to someone who is just starting out, HOWEVER, for most of those 14 years I didn't really spend ANY time or effort learning Japanese. I'd probably say I've been studying Japanese for less than 3 years, if I take out all the months where I didn't do any studying at all.
Even now I'm not studying hard at all to learn Japanese. Learning Japanese is more of a hobby to me. I want to be able to read books and watch films in Japanese without breaking a sweat, eventually, but I have no imminent need to be able to do this right now so I'm being pretty lazy about it. :P
I find it more interesting and fun learning ABOUT Japanese and stuff like the history of the language, more so than learning to actually speak, read and write Japanese. This is why it seems like I know a lot, but my Japanese still sucks because I'm learning loads of near pointless stuff instead of what I should probably be learning! Haha. ^^; - Yeah I've learned all my hiragana off by heart now and down to the ns of Katakana :) idk I've always wanted to learn another language (I'm bilingual and I'm supposed to pick them up easier too) but I never kept any on in school apart from the two I speak, so I decided to take one up and honestly, I think the fact that Japanese doesn't use our alphabet makes it more exciting and interesting to learn :D it's actually enjoyable rather than a chore for me so far :) no I'm the same, it's a hobby and not a need so I know it will take me ages to get halfway decent at it but it's Summer ATM and I have nothing better to do before I start uni (hopefully) in September so may as well get started while I have spare time I guess :)
- plus I wanna visit Japan some day so knowing the language will be a plus I guess and it won't hurt my employability either :D
- Nice, good job! I also like that Japanese doesn't use our alphabet--I don't think I'd have been interested enough to learn the language if it used our alphabet.
I only speak English, having lived in the same village in the south of England all my life, and I neglected learning French even though I was taught it for 5 years in secondary school... Being bilingual must be pretty handy for learning new languages? I'm guessing, if your other language uses our alphabet, that it is a european one (or another British language)?--I hope it's not French after I've kept saying how I ignored learning it in lessons... >_>
Grammar is the hardest part of Japanese that I struggle with, because it is so different to English. It doesn't help that in school I never really learnt much about English grammar--I just use it instinctively. I had to stop attempting to learn Japanese grammar and actually learn about how English grammar works, so to give myself a much better chance of learning the grammar of a foreign language. For a bilingual person like yourself, learning the grammar for another language might be much easier, as you already understand two different sets of grammar?
