I need help with the causative form of the verbs. D: I don't know which particles I… - Feed Post by ReilaKookie

• 
  ReilaKookie

  *(My mom forced me to eat.)
  Oops x3

  January 4, 2015 at 1:39am
• 
  DS25

  I think that this page covers most of your questions:
  http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/causepass
  
  The subject is usually not expressed if it's the person speaking. Otherwise it uses the common wa/ga rules for known/unknown items. The person who is making the subject take the action, aka "the agent", wants the に particle as in the common passive sense.

  January 4, 2015 at 2:34am
• 
  DS25

  For instance a complete sentence could be:
  私はお母さんに苦い野菜を食べさせられました。

  January 4, 2015 at 2:41am
• 
  mog86uk

  Do you mean "causative form" or "causative-passive form"? Because the verb ending you used is the causative-passive (～させられる).
  
  I might be wrong, but this is how I read those sentences you wrote:
  
  "母が私を食べさせられた。"　= My mum was forced (by someone) to eat me. (!!)
  
  "母が私に食べさせられた。"　= My mum was forced by me to eat.
  
  
  I'm guessing you meant to use 食べさせた, the causative form of the verb? Using that verb form would change the meanings as follows:
  
  母が私を食べさせた。　= My mum forced (someone) to eat me. (!!!)
  
  母が私に食べさせた。　= My mum made me eat. / My mum let me eat.
  
  
  The first sentence is still funny either way though. :P
  
  Were you after help with particles used for causative-passive form? or for causative form?

  January 4, 2015 at 1:04pm
• 
  lawliets

  Ahaha, I read this post and the comments to expand my knowledge for the heck of it, but in mog's comment above mine, that "母が私を食べさせた" sentence translation made me lose it! I'm laughing like crazy haha.
  
  Sad thing is, it seems like the type of mistake that I would make :'(

  January 4, 2015 at 6:39pm
• 
  mog86uk

  Heh. I was actually interested to see if the way I read those sentences was correct--whether anyone would say something different. I haven't studied grammar properly for a long time, so I could very well be wrong.
  
  I didn't think about it at the time, but I just tried pasting those sentences into Google Translate and it read those sentences very differently...
  
  The が vs は thing is the normal が is what you use to mark the grammatical subject of the verb. However, if you want to make the grammatical subject to be also the topic of the sentence, then just replace the が with は (instead of using both together like がは, which would be wrong).
  
  The に vs を thing is used differently depending on whether the verb is transitive or intransitive. Whether に or を each have different meanings for "allow/let" or "force/make" is complicated. Usually it is simply context which determines whether "allow" or "force" is being meant.
  
  IMABI is a better site for learning specific grammatical stuff like this, however it does takes a lot of effort to read as it goes into so much detail. Here's IMABI's page explaining everything you asked for the causative form:
  http://www.imabi.net/l130thecausative.htm

  January 5, 2015 at 2:46am
• 
  ReilaKookie

  I don't know whether to laugh or cry haha xD
  Well, I went to this (spanish) site http://www.kimisikita.org/kimifriki/verbos11.html to help me with the particles... Maybe I just got it wrong idk
  Well, thank you all for your help. ^^

  January 5, 2015 at 11:33pm
• 
  mog86uk

  Ah. That website seems very good for teaching Japanese grammar. Shame I don't speak Spanish, but I think I understand what it is saying.
  
  The problems with the sentences you wrote are:
  
  ・食べる is a transitive verb. On that webpage, look at the second part under heading #5 (about 'verbos transitivos'). This explains why you needed to use に instead of を in your sentence:
  
  　"La partícula を wo está ocupada marcando el complemento directo."
  
  ・You used ～させられた (la forma causativa pasiva), however that webpage is explaining how to use ～させた (la forma causativa).
  
  La forma pasiva uses particles differently:
  　 http://www.kimisikita.org/kimifriki/verbos10.html
  This is why your sentence has a different meaning to what you what you wanted--because la forma causativa pasiva uses particles differently to la forma causativa. ^^

  January 6, 2015 at 1:58am
• 
  ricardojp

  @mog86uk haha it's funny how you use the three languages, I could almost think you do know spanish, since you're using it right (in a "spanglish" way haha)

  January 6, 2015 at 2:21pm
• 
  DS25

  Well, i'm italian so i kinda understand spanish grammar categories. The issue is exactly what mog86uk said.
  
  If you take a look to the page i linked a couple days ago (tae-kim is the best free grammar source) you'll find the same differences.

  January 6, 2015 at 10:06pm