Ideas for Notes

I figured it would be a good idea to give this topic a thread of its own :D

Gituska suggested http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:1000_Japanese_basic_words and I suggested Smart.fm's Core 2000 which Mr. Spanz so nicely put into place :)

I'd like to suggest that we have a Kyouiku kanji by grade list;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyōiku_kanji
I think there should be two lists for each grade, for example;
Grade 1 single kanji - with just 80 entries (no combos or okurigana)
Grade 1 words and combination kanji words
Rather than list all the readings for each kanji, in the first list we would only give the reading of how the kanji is pronounced by itself; E.g. in the first list 楽 - らく but in the second list 楽しい - たのしい, 楽しむ - たのしむ, 音楽 - おんがく that way the first list is kept simple and you can learn the other readings by their usage in the second list.

Or would you guys prefer a list like 楽 - 音: らく, がく 訓: たの(しい) (All reading listed) I'm just afraid it would be a bit too much if we did that O: I want your input guys :D (I hope I made sense haha)

Suggestion Number 2!
http://www.jlptstudy.com/ This site has a great list of Kanji, grammar, expressions and vocab needed for the various levels of the JLPT. However, since the New JLPT came out this year it's a little disorganized while the webmaster tries to figure out how the new levels fit in with the old ones. Level 2 is still about the same so that list is still very good :) The level 2 vocabulary list has nearly 5000 words and is arranged similarly to the smart.fm lists. So I think it should be fairly easy for spanz to use his program to quickly make a note of this list (perhaps divided into 5 1000-word lists) I'm sorry to ask spanz, I just figured you could do it quickly and easily, if it is any difficulty at all, don't worry about it :) Just a suggestion ;D I'll do the kanji lists myself :)

Well, this is nice and uber long now! Mwahaha! What do y'all think? Any more suggestions? :D
posted by StonerPenguin

Comments 24

  • spanz
    spanz
    Uber long answer (tm):

    First of all, I think vocabulary lists fit better into a Note than Kanji lists. The multiple readings are a problem.

    ..............

    Stoner's suggestion 1: Kyouiku.
    I guess it's as good as any other list. Probably better, as it's official. We can do it.
    About creating two lists -one simple and one for combinations-, I like the idea.
    The first one would be like a Kanji practice list, and the second one as a vocabulary list. All reading listed is too much.

    I guess Beeant had to face this same dilemma when preparing Kanji lessons. He chose to put all the readings together and show the combinations when you press a button. As a Note has no buttons, I think splitting the lists is the right way. About using just one reading for the first list, I'm not sure wich one would be the best. Maybe the first ON reading?

    Sadly, the wikipedia lists all the readings in romaji (bleh). If we can find another list with proper (Kana) readings, the job should be fairly simple (for the first part). If not, we will have to correct the readings one by one (ouch).
    The second part (compounds) of kyouiku seems harder. What compounds do you plan to add? Is there such a list? Do you intend to browse a dictionary and pick the words by hand? That seems really hard, although it can be done.

    ..............

    Stoner's suggestion 2: JLPT vocabulary.
    Those are pretty easy to convert into Notes. The list format in http://www.jlptstudy.com/ is perfect to extract all the fields we need, even the parts of speech. (ʘ‿ʘ)

    Don't work on the JLPT L2 vocabulary list. I'll do it for you with "my program" (actually I use standard free tools in a several steps procedure). Just wait for the completion of the "1000 Japanese basic words". Btw, those 1000 words are actually less than 600, and not all of them are usable. O_o!

    I'm still not sure if Beeant likes the idea of having the Core series here. Renaming them was a silly move, but it hides somewhat the list's origin. I want to make a description giving credit to you, but if I cannot mention the source, it's going to be a bit weird. If Beeant allows mentioning the source, I will rename back all the Core Notes and I'll give the credit to you. m(__)m

  • StonerPenguin
    StonerPenguin
    Ah thank you Spanz! I'm glad to hear the JLPT 2 list can be easily done :D
    Also, I already made a Grade 1 kanji list yesterday (I kept it private until it was finished and I got the opinion of others ;) I chose to use the 'stand alone' reading, how it's pronounced by itself. But that's a little difficult considering some have no stand alone reading or more than one (For example 生 is pronounced 'なま' when meaning 'raw' and it's pronounced 'せい' when it means 'life'. And 金 is pronounced 'きん' when meaning 'gold' and 'かね' when it means 'money'.) So in those cases I gave two readings, however I think it should still be okay :) Look at it and tell me what you think. Also, I'm working on the other list, it's private now. It'll be a list of only Grade 1 kanji compounds, although that'll be quite difficult to do with the other grades XD I dunno, I guess I'll work on it in my spare time :D

    FFFF y'know maybe I should just make two lists for each grade, an on'yomi one and a kun'yomi one... but some kanji lack either one of those ARGH! This is harder than I first thought XD Oh well, I mostly did this for an easy way to learn/quiz the *meanings* of each kanji rather than the readings :) It'll work out. Sorry if my rant is unintelligible... Thanks for the feedback!
  • StonerPenguin
    StonerPenguin
    Oh yeah, I almost forgot;
    You don't have to worry about smart.fm getting mad at us or copyright stuff. I'm pretty sure they made their list from another source and moreover I've seen people outright copy smart.fm's Core 2000 with the same audio, pictures, everything on SRS (Spaced repetition system) programs like Anki and Surusu and they have no trouble, they've been left alone for like 2 years O: Besides, it's not like they 'own' those words XD and it's not a profit thing so we're fine. :) Maybe in the future we can do the Intermediate Core Bwahaha!
  • beeant
    beeant
    Wow what a long messages, I will read them after I finished all my exams and reports, sorry for disturbing. But I will try to read and respond ASAP.
  • spanz
    spanz
    "Sorry for disturbing" Hahahaha!
    Beeant: You don't need it, but good luck with your exams!

    Stoner: Your notes look good.
    Looking the readings without okurigana is very strange, but I guess it's ok.
    No problem with the two readings.
    About making two lists for each grade, an on'yomi one and a kun'yomi one, that would be too much. That's not worth it.

    Just a silly typographic advice: When there are multiple options, I like to use a slash " / " with one space at each side. I see you're using that too for the Kanji and ";" for the English. That's good. The " / " separation is ok when writing in English, but is too wide when writing in Japanese. I correct this switching to English and typing the " / " in English between the Japanese characters. It seems you have experimented with the two spaces. I think the narrow separation (like in your "Gold, money" きん / かね) is better than the wide one (like in your "Look, View" み / けん), although the problem depends on the font you're using.

    Are you making your private note "Grade 1 kanji - Words & Combos" from a list or are you picking the words randomly? It looks like a hard work.
    About the formatting, I'm glad to see that you're trying to maintain my own Core series style. Now I wonder if the [noun]/[adj]..., etc parts are really necessary.
    Ah!, you put an extra trailing espace in the Kanji for January [noun]. :P

    I'm not worried about smart.fm. I just feel that beeant doesn't like it. Dunno why (maybe I'm wrong).

    Uff! Beeant is right. What a long messages... ;D
  • StonerPenguin
    StonerPenguin
    Haha! You can see my "Grade 1 kanji - Words & Combos" list? I was under the impression that if it was private only I could see it :P And yes, I making my own list, but I don't mind since I googled and several people have asked for such a list and nobody has one. I'm glad to make one to help others :) I'll just work on it while I do some other stuff I have to do on the computer.

    Also, thanks for the advice. I'll fix those later ...though I hate to delete 'em and re-add them since it changes the list order but I'll get over it haha I do wanna keep in the POS brackets, I think they're just good for clarification. Thank you for looking over my list. I really appreciate your input C: BTW we're long messages buddies! ;D
  • spanz
    spanz
    This isn't going to be a long one:
    I'm sorry for invading your note privacity. I was curious about it and I cheated to see it. Blame the spy in me. I won't do it again. :(
    When Beeant has time, we will discuss how improve the privacity.
    I also hate losing the list order. Probably we need a edit function. Once again, when Beeant has time.
  • StonerPenguin
    StonerPenguin
    あっ、大丈夫だよ。^^ I was just curious as to how you could see it, I don't mind that you saw it. Besides as I've got over 100 vocabs in there now I made it public. In the future you can look at my private stuff (must resist double entendre! XD) And yes, an edit feature would be pretty nice :) But when only when beeant has time. I'm really happy with all the work he's done and I hate to bother him. Thank you beeant! :D

    Carry the good work Spy Spanz!
  • beeant
    beeant
    Ahh I know how you spy one one's note (you changed the number in the URL),
    I am sorry for the bug, I will change it ASAP, along with the edit function.

    I am also planning to add a thumbnail picture for each note. What do you think about this?

    Thank You,
    bn
  • StonerPenguin
    StonerPenguin
    Ah so that's how! Mr. Beeant is giving away secret spy secrets! XD And thank you beeant, but those updates can certainly wait until exam month is over, that's the most important :) I hope you do well. がんばってくださいね~

    About the thumbnail, that sounds good :) although just the note description is good enough (I'm worried about how much space it'll take up). But it should be nice :D Such a busy webmaster you are! I really admire how active you are in constantly improving this site :D You're amazing. Congrats on your 4th donation!
  • spanz
    spanz
    Yes, that URL trick was the dirty system I used, haha!

    About the "1000 basic..." notes, some categories are somewhat confusing, and some contents don't fit well, but I've tried to not change the notes too much.
    You may have noticed that adding all the "1000 basic" notes together, they sum way less than 1000 entries. This is due to two main reasons:
    1-The original page lists only 587 entries (why the 1000 name?)
    2-I've discarded some categories because they're too small, or incomplete, or contain no real words (particles and such), or there are already other similar notes (e.g. colors).
    Now, I'm going to make notes from the JLPT-L2 link.

    Beeant: Do you plan to put a thumbnail (a picture) for each note (a text list)? I can't imagine a picture representing a list of adjectives. O_o!
    What do you think about the Core2000 notes?
    Keep studying, please!

    Stoner: Your Grade 1 Combos list keeps growing nicely! At that pace, it's going to be veeeery large! Good work!
  • StonerPenguin
    StonerPenguin
    Ah thank you :) I planning on doing 100 words a day til I run out XD Also, about the JLPT 2 list; I think 1000 words per list may be a bit too much.. maybe 500 or 250 word chunks would be better? I'll leave it up to you ;D
  • spanz
    spanz
    I don't know how to do it yet. The JLPT2 list is in "alphabetical" kana order, so maybe splitting by starting kana would be better.
    The list has many entries without translation and even more with translation but without POS. There's even some Kanji - Kana swapped.
    I might ignore (delete) the problematic lines, or try to correct them.
    I'll see...

    About your compounds, I've noticed they always start with a Kanji from the other Note (single Kanji).
    That is, you include words like 一雨, but not words like 画一.
    Is this intended?

    Please, don't burn yourself. 100 hand-made entries a day can be exhausting.
  • StonerPenguin
    StonerPenguin
    Yeah, right now I'm going down the list in order (as listed on Wikipedia) doing words than *begin* with the kanji I'm currently doing. But I don't think I'll do that if I do lists for the other grades. That's just the way I'm doing this one :)

    Sorry that the JLPT 2 list is kinda irregular. I forgot about that :/ I was wondering if it'd be easy to divide it into groups of verbs, い-adj, な-adj, adverbs etc. But that sounds pretty difficult.. (I was thinking that an alphabetical list might be confusing. You know, a bunch of similar sounding words that begin with あ. But really I don't think that'd be a problem ;D) I dunno, I leave it to you. :) BTW I'm so glad to have somebody into the same tedious things I am! XD Thanks!
  • spanz
    spanz
    You're right. Splitting by alphabetical Kana order would be horrible. Almost as bad as splitting the list in fixed size bunches.
    Using the POS field would be much better. The problem is that there are too many categories, and they're usually mixed. Besides, I don't know many of them!
    Anyway, it can be done. I'm going to start a test with adjectives.
    For the moment, I'll leave the problematic entries alone.
    The original list separates the meanings with commas. Let's see if the commas don't break something. For now, I'm not going to change them.

    I'm going to make 5 "adjectives" notes:

    JLPT-2 Adjectives (ALL the adjectives, regardless their type)
    JLPT-2 な Adjectives
    JLPT-2 の Adjectives
    JLPT-2 pn Adjectives
    JLPT-2 い Adjectives (that is, those wich are not na/no/pn)

    The categories are not excluyent, so there will be many entries repeated between notes, even with adverbs, nouns, etc.

    Well, time to work! I will notify when I finish these notes. Bye!



  • StonerPenguin
    StonerPenguin
    Oh wow how cool! Thanks, that's awesome! :D
    I hope it works good!

    BTW; I finished the grade 2 kanji list, but I'm really wavering in my resolve to only give one reading XD http://japaneseclass.jp/note/open/145 Is that a little too much or is it okay? :/ I think I'm gonna put off the 'words & combos' lists until I get all the single Kanji lists done :P

    I'm glad you're going on those lists! Thanks a bunch!
  • spanz
    spanz
    No, no. Thanks to you!

    Infortunately, THERE ARE multiple readings, so it's ok to give more than one. I would do the same.

    The first group of JLPT-2 Notes is ready!
  • spanz
    spanz
    I've posted a really big note with all the NOUNS in the JLPT-2 list.

    Quote from the Note description:
    This list includes:
    n noun (common) (futsuumeishi) 3173 entries
    n-adv adverbial noun (fukushitekimeishi) 145 entries
    n-t noun (temporal) (jisoumeishi) 98 entries

    Tne n-adv and n-t categories are very similar. Most entries are the same.

    The common name category is so big, and the other two are so small (comparatively speaking) and so similar, that making separate Notes is not worth.
  • StonerPenguin
    StonerPenguin
    They're so beautiful!! There's quite a few words I don't know O: I'm gonna use these a bunch! I'll double check these and tell you about them as I find errors. (I already found one...) but Kickass man! Thanks a ton!!

    BTW Sorry I didn't post sooner, my computer is acting flaky :/ and I got some stuff to do, so I might not be on much for the next day or two. I really trust your judgment, the lists are very clear and easy to understand. I like your layout bro ;D

  • spanz
    spanz
    I've corrected / completed some entries before the posting, but there will be many more. Please, keep a note of all errors you find.

    No need to thank me. I'm doing the minimal work possible:
    I only grab the POS and put it inside square brackets before sticking it at the end of the English field. Nothing more.
    Ah, yes: when there's no Kanji, I repeat the Kana. And that's all.
    I'm not changing anything. The English field is exactly the same (plus the POS), and Kana and Kanji are the same as well.
    Moreover, the POS is in a standard abbreviated form. Exactly as in the original list. There are not entries with multiple Kanji or Kana in the same line, so until now, I didn't need any "/". BUT, (and this is a big but) there are repeated Kanji in different lines (with different readings or meanings). This kind of list could cause problems in a random Quiz, so I think I'll merge all those lines in a larger one with the readings / meanings / whatever separated with "/". For now, I just want to end the notes, and then we'll see.

    Your computer may be flaking but your smile still stays on... ♫
  • StonerPenguin
    StonerPenguin
    Aww, that's sweet ;)I hate to stay away XD I've got stuff to do but you're too irresistible Spanz 〜♡
    Anywho, here's a list of Current problemas;
    Duplicate entry
    (1) draft (beer),(2) raw,unprocessed [adj-na,adj-no,n] -- せい -- 生
    (1) draft (beer),(2) raw,unprocessed [adj-na,adj-no,n] -- なま -- 生
    生 (せい) means life. 生 (なま) means "(1) Raw; uncooked; fresh (2) natural; unprocessed; crude (3) Live (i.e. not recorded, performance) (4) unpasteurized beer; draft beer" [生ビール (なまビール) means draft beer] and I don't think it's a な-adj... http://tangorin.com/words/

    free of charge,mere,sole,only,usual,common [adj-pn,adv,conj]-- ただ -- 只
    free of charge,mere,sole,only,usual,common [adj-pn,adv,conj]-- ただ -- 唯
    free of charge,mere,sole,only,usual,common [adj-pn,adv,conj]-- たった -- 唯

    I checked on a Japanese dictionary site and たった doesn't appear to be a reading of 唯. Perhaps you could change this entry to this;
    "free of charge,mere,sole,only,usual,common [adj-pn,adv,conj]-- ただ -- 只 / 唯"


    There are a few entries where it seems the kanji has been excluded even though the words are normally written in kanji. Like 赤ちゃん, 赤ん坊 etc.

    day before yesterday [n-adv,n-t]-- いっさくじつ -- 一昨日
    day before yesterday [n-adv,n-t] -- おととい -- おととい
    >> day before yesterday [n-adv,n-t]-- いっさくじつ / おととい -- 一昨日

    year before last [n-adv,n-t]-- いっさくねん -- 一昨年
    year before last [n-adv,n-t] -- おととし -- おととし
    >> year before last [n-adv,n-t]-- いっさくねん / おととし -- 一昨年
    They're different pronunciations of the same kanji with the same meaning ;)

    I'll tell ya if I see more :)
  • spanz
    spanz
    Stoner: Take your time, and believe me, I'm highly resistible... Nah, I'm joking, I'm TOTALLY resistible. ;P

    The duplicate entries are, in fact, the main problem. That's why I said that I'll need to use the "/" sooner or later.

    FYI, the list has true duplicates, like these:

    "通り","とおり","in accordance with ~,following ~,~ Street,~ Avenue [n-suf]"
    "通り","とおり","in accordance with ~,following ~,~ Street,~ Avenue [n-suf]"
    "月","つき","moon,month [n-t]"
    "月","つき","moon,month [n-t]"
    In these cases, all the fields are identical, but that doesn't cause problems because you can't upload a duplicate entry (thanks to beeant!).

    The cases you mention are almost-duplicates, and the only way to treat them is (as you say), merging the differences like in your example:
    "free of charge,mere,sole,only,usual,common [adj-pn,adv,conj]-- ただ -- 只 / 唯"

    About this example, I think たった is one of those "Kana alone" words. In this case, the meaning matches one of the meanings of 只 / 唯 (wich seem to be somehow equivalent). I guess たった needs its own line, without Kanji.

    About なま -- 生 being a な-adj, EDICT thinks it is.
    The other reading せい -- 生, means definitely life, and it isn't a な-adj at all.
    Despite what Tangorin says, here are two examples of なま -- 生 as a な-adj.
    http://trial-set.jp/nama-supplement/
    生なサプリメントでセラミドとプラセンタを体験。(Ceramide & Placenta supplement pills, puagh!)
    http://smokystudio.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2009-08-02
    生なヒューガルデン! (Hoegaarden seems to be a bar restorant, yumm!)

    I can't understand why to exclude those normal Kanji. I guess we'll need to fix them one by one, when we see it. :(

    A coincidence. Stoner, does this line ring a bell?:
    "発想","はっそう","[removed]music),conceptualization [n]" becomes "発想","はっそう","[removed]music),conceptualization [n]"
    Hahaha! You're not alone!

    Other problem I see is the lack of spaces. The list includes all the meanings separated by commas, but no spaces after them. Due to this, a typical line like "位置","いち","place,situation,position,location [n,vs]" doesn't fit in the Quiz box. It seems beeant's Quiz system breaks the long lines at the spaces positions. For such a long line, the first space is the separation between the meaning and the POS. All you can see in the Quiz is a long, incomplete line that disappears to the right (out of the box) and the POS below it.
    It seems I'll need to add spaces after the commas. Changing them to " / " would make the line even longer (two spaces for each separator) Sigh!

    Please, keep telling me (this is for everyone!) all the errors you see in my notes. Thanks!
  • StonerPenguin
    StonerPenguin
    I've come back for you, resistible spanz! XD Sorry, I've still got some work to do before I can enjoy my summer vacation completely but I'm almost done :D

    Sorry that you suffered the same error (The 'expression" one), how strange! O: And good research on 生! (生なサプリメントでセラミドとプラセンタ does sound truly gross...) Thanks for the good work ;) BTW What program do you use for making notes? Just curious.
  • spanz
    spanz
    Stoner: Don't worry. I have also some work and family stuff to do, so I've been procrastinating a bit.
    That error is really strange. I guess Beeant is surprised, too.

    To satisfy your curiosity, I make the notes in a three steps procedure. I'm afraid it's not a simple system. It's not very difficult but it's complex. :(

    1- CAPTURE. Often, you could simply select, copy & paste the web contents into a text file, but I usually use a table plugin for FireFox (TableTools). This way you can control some things like the column separator. I paste the contents into a Open Office spreadsheet for no reason. Spreadsheets are good for ordering, adding or deleting columns, and it's very easy to notice any misalignment. I save the file as pure text, comma separated values(.csv).

    2- EDITION. I make the necessary modifications with a good text editor (like Notepad++). Using regular expressions, you can do some smart editing (merging columns, substituting characters under some circumstances, duplicating the Kana field when there's no Kanji, etc).
    For things like complex extractions, I use gawk (an ancient programmable console text process tool). For example, using gawk , I can extract the lines that include "adj" in any position between brackets. Or reject the lines that contain "adj-na" only after a comma, or any thing you can think of. Gawk is a programmable tool, so you can do really complex extractions and substitutions.

    3- UPLOADING. When I'm happy with my note in .csv format, I use again the spreadsheet to visually check the file before uploading it. Then, I use iMacros for FireFox (a macro plugin for FireFox) to do all the uploading work. This macro tool allows you to fill web formularies and push buttons automatically. Using the .csv file as the source data, a simple macro uploads the lines one by one, with a convenient delay between them to adapt to the server speed.

    Finally, I check the number of items in the notes list. If the number is correct, that's all. If the number is not correct, some uploads have failed (the uploading was too fast), so I need to find out the missing entries (for example, recapturing the data and comparing the files with a good file comparator). Once again, Notepad++ can do the job. With the small list of missing entries as .csv, I run the macro again to upload them at the end of the note, losing their original order (currently, there's no way to avoid it).

    And that's all! Much easier than typing all the text!
    I'm sure this system is overcomplicated, but it works for me.

    Wow! this is a long one, again... :D
StonerPenguin

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