A little warning about the learning system

Not many of you seem to know where to start learning Japanese at all and try to have a Kanji collection.
This site almost seems to be a statistical kleptomania horde of egotism.

Though I am not trying to criticize too hard, I see almost no grammar, a sort of "real" approach to learn Japanese here.
When I read RAW Manga or a Japanese newspaper, its like a slap in the face because despite knowing as much Kanji or vocabulary as you can stuff into your brain at once, it will never cure the ill effects of a failure to learn grammar.

What about word order, sentence order, tips, suggestions, predicates and so on?
Particles are the most important part of the language next to the ending verb... yet its vacant like it went on vacation while new people here start learning Kanji almost immediately.

Don't the Japanese learn grammar and Kanji than being forced to learn only Kanji?

Just my thoughts, take them as you want :3
posted by JanetMerai

Comments 14

  • Mistwalker
    Mistwalker
    @ Kupo
    1) There are example sentences. Use the practice feature and you will see them on the left hand side once you've answered. I find it better to use practice (Change settings to your needs) and then take lessons/tests once you've covered that level a few times, rather than do lessons/test first.
    2) I'm sorry to say this but Kanji need all those information! You'll have to get used to it. Don't try to remember everything in one go. Just try to pick up on one thing (meaning, on, kun, or kanji), then next time you see it and have memorised that, try and add another, then another, and another. Some kanji have multiple meanings or readings depending on compounds or stand alone.
    3) Its best to NEVER learn just from one source and have a selection of options. That way you can get the best things off each avenue of study.
    4) I agree the sound isn't the greatest available on some and it is fairly fast as well but it can help on pronunciations of words. might have to listen a few times to catch it.
    5) Stick with it. While it doesn't seem like you are learning much at the time now. After a while it will start to click, stay in the brain and you'll recall the information quickly. Plus it makes repetition fun.

    Rikaichan may be helpful for you as well. Can turn it on while studying and off during test so you don't cheat.

    Hope that helps ^_^
  • Kupo
    Kupo
    I have to agree with you.


    Furthermore I want to say something to the learning system in it's current state:
    I don't feel like I'm really learning something from these exercises.
    Me being a total beginner (I can only introduce myself so far) I don't know how I'm supposed to use the stuff correctly I just learned since there aren't any example sentences those words / Kanjis are used in.
    Also, those Kanjis contain too much information for a beginner to handle. I mean just look up the very first 3 Kanjis. There are already 11 readings and 16 translations!
    Oh, and the way one gets tested is really monotonous. "Here you have 4 possible answers. If you have no clue just click a random one, maybe you'll be right."
    And I don't see much of a use in that listen button since I can't figure out what it just said most of the time.
    And because I can't stop to say "and" I think you should organize the lessons a bit better. I wouldn't really seperate vocabulary and Kanji but rather make a chapter with some of both which will allow me to build a simple sentence at the end of it.

    Improvement suggestions:
    - example sentences which contain new words
    - better organization of lessons
    - more ways of getting tested (input words, switching language of the words that shall be translated, fill in words into a text,...)

    I don't want this site to not be a helpful place for beginners because I think that the level system is a good way to keep students motivated, but it won't work as long as the lessons itself are lacking of good ways to memorize the stuff.
  • Kupo
    Kupo
    @Mistwalker:
    1) Woops, didn't know because I thought I should see the lessons first^^"
    2) I'm quite arware of that fact, but I still think that it should be one by one, at least as for the reading part because a newby won't know which of those readings will be asked (because everytime one takes the test the same will be asked)
    3) Lucky me I have more sources, I even know a native Japanese^^
    5) Hmm, let's see if I'll get used to it~

    Thanks for giving me some advices to how to handle things around here :)
  • beeant
    beeant
    I think this thread has so many insights for me.

    I'm sorry that I cannot give a good respond now, as I am currently busy with my University.
    I will get back to join the discussion sooner or later.

    Thank you,
    bn
  • Mistwalker
    Mistwalker
    A grammar section would be a lovely addition and something for future expansion.

    Even something along the lines of:
    バス __ のって買いものに行きました。
    a) は
    b) を
    c) に
    d) と
    if you wanted to follow the format already on this site. Particles are one of the weakest areas for me as they can quite often be left out, so would be nice to test them from time to time.
  • Eyeball_Kid
    Eyeball_Kid
    Mistwalker's idea seems perfect to me. I have textbooks that work in a similar way but to get it on the site would be great.
  • Mistwalker
    Mistwalker
    Thanks Eyeball_Kid ^^

    It doesn't just have to be place particle in sentence for grammar. There could be ones with Verb+endings, adjectives, te forms to continue sentence, verb short forms, verb stem forms, etc etc and so on.
  • Gonzah
    Gonzah
    i agree with patsykes and mistwalker, you can learn a lot of words , but now we need who use it, that grammar (practice) section will be great
  • stevel
    stevel
    Un buen libro para aprender gramática es el Minna no Nihongo, y el uso de las partículas y estructuras gramaticales es fundamental. Estoy deacuerdo con patsykes ademas la gramatica japonesa es complicada como para aprenderlo solo, el uso de material adicional y clases es necesario. Agregar una seccion de Explicacion Gramatical seria muy buena idea.
  • SLeon
    SLeon
    If people really need to learn grammar badly (on this site), can't you just open a temporary forum to cover the grammatical points? Then you could build a grammar section based on the discussed points. I highly doubt it will be that simple but worth a shot I suppose.

    (Sorry if I'm rude or blunt)
  • patsykes
    patsykes
    I agree that the learning system isn't complete, but no system is. This is a good way to revise/learn vocabulary and kanji, but if you want to learn grammar (or really the language itself), you should find another site. My experience (this is my 10th year of Japanese learning and my second year of learning at a university level) is that using a variety of resources is the best way to learn. Sites like this one will teach you words, but it could be worth investing in a textbook or even a language class to teach you how to use it.

    (Apologies to the admin if you consider it rude to recommend other resources. If so, please delete this comment)
  • karlaxwp
    karlaxwp
    I think this site is a perfect complement for people who are studying japanese by themselves or in a language school. The website lacks grammar, but to be honest japanese grammar is quite complicated to be taught on a self study website, I think we should take it as a way to practice Kanji and vocabulary :D
  • JanetMerai
    JanetMerai
    I agree with these last two posts, but on the contrary however, I also sort of disagree to an extent.

    Beeant is trying to get better and improve this site day-by-day, and simply saying to stay with the old is to not improve the site.
    Yes, its free and I respect that, but its also a bit of a weak saying because its up to the webmaster what to include or leave out.

    Based on Beeant's comment earlier on this thread, he expressed interest in this topic, so there's logical reasons to consider that a grammar based section or a system could be implemented.

    Until then, I agree and believe this site really helps you learn Japanese... just don't be surprised when you don't recall the grammar not covered on Tae Kim's Guide to Grammar :3
  • yagarasu
    yagarasu
    I agree with karlaxwp: the site should be taken only as a complement. The site is a great way to study vocabulary, but just that.

    Some resources (google them):
    If you want to learn grammar, you can go to Tae Kim's Guide to Learning Japanese.
    If you want to practice your writting, you can go to Lang-8.
    If you want to practice your speaking, just look for japanese friends on Skype.
    If you want to read examples using the words you learn here, you can go to Jim Breen's wwwjdic, search the word and click the [Ex] link.

    がんばれ!
JanetMerai

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